Sem Kin. Interv'yu s Kastanedoj, 1976 --------------------------------------------------------------- Seeing Castaneda (1976), reprinted from Psychology Today, 1972 Perevod: Dmitrij Manaev, 1999, E-mail: level@aport.ru --------------------------------------------------------------- Sem Kin: Sledya za donom Huanom na protyazhenii Vashih treh knig, vremya ot vremeni ya podozreval, chto on byl tvoreniem Karlosa Kastanedy. On slishkom horosh, chtoby byt' nastoyashchim - mudryj staryj indeec, ch'e znanie chelovecheskoj prirody prevoshodit znanie pochti lyubogo cheloveka. Karlos Kastaneda: Ideya o tom, chto ya pridumal takuyu lichnost', kak don Huan, neveroyatna. On vryad li yavlyaetsya takim tipom personazha, k izobreteniyu kotorogo mogla by privesti moya evropejskaya intellektual'naya tradiciya. Istina gorazdo bolee strannaya. YA dazhe ne byl podgotovlen k tomu, chtoby delat' te izmeneniya v moej zhizni, v kotorye menya vovleklo obshchenie s donom Huanom. Kin: Kak i gde Vy vstretili dona Huana i stali ego uchenikom? Kastaneda: YA zakanchival uchebu v Universitete Los-Andzhelesa i planiroval postupat' v aspiranturu po antropologii. YA byl zainteresovan v tom, chtoby stat' professorom i dumal, chto podhodyashchim nachalom mogla by stat' publikaciya korotkoj raboty po medicinskim rasteniyam. YA ne zabotilsya o poiskah takogo strannogo cheloveka kak don Huan. YA byl na avtobusnoj stancii v Arizone s odnim drugom po universitetu. On ukazal mne na kakogo-to starogo indejca i skazal, chto tot znaet o pejote i medicinskih rasteniyah. YA napustil vazhnyj vid, predstavilsya donu Huanu i skazal: "Mne izvestno, chto Vy znaete massu vsego o pejote. YA odin iz ekspertov po pejotu (ya k tomu vremeni prochital "Kul't pejota" Uestona la Berra) i dlya Vas bylo by polezno kakoe-to vremya pogovorit' so mnoj za lanchem". Nu, on prosto vzglyanul na menya i moya bravada rastayala. YA stal absolyutno kosnoyazychnym i nemym. Obychno ya byl ochen' agressivnym i mnogoslovnym, i okazat'sya utihomirennym ot odnogo vzglyada bylo ochen' neobychnym. Posle etogo ya stal poseshchat' ego i primerno cherez god on skazal mne, chto reshil peredat' mne znanie o magii, kotoromu on nauchilsya u svoego uchitelya. Kin: To est', don Huan - ne izolirovannyj fenomen. Sushchestvuet li kakoe-to obshchestvo magov, kotoroe razdelyaet sekretnoe znanie? Kastaneda: Konechno. YA znayu treh magov i sem' uchenikov i sushchestvuet eshche bol'she. Esli Vy prochtete istoriyu ispanskogo zavoevaniya Meksiki, Vy uznaete, chto katolicheskie inkvizitory pytalis' likvidirovat' magiyu, potomu chto oni rassmatrivali ee kak rabotu d'yavola. Tak bylo povsyudu mnogie sotni let. Mnogie tehniki, kotorym menya uchil don Huan, ochen' starye. Kin: Nekotorye iz tehnik, kotorymi pol'zuyutsya magi, nahodyatsya v shirokom primenenii v drugih okkul'tnyh gruppah. Lyudi chasto ispol'zuyut snovideniya, chtoby iskat' poteryannye veshchi i oni otpravlyayutsya vo vnetelesnye puteshestviya vo sne. No kogda Vy rasskazyvali o tom, kak don Huan i ego drug don Henaro zastavili vash avtomobil' rastvorit'sya sredi bela dnya, ya mog tol'ko pochesat' v zatylke. YA znayu, chto gipnotizer mozhet sozdavat' illyuziyu prisutstviya ili otsutstviya ob容kta. Vy dumaete, chto Vas gipnotizirovali? Kastaneda: Vozmozhno, chto-to vrode etogo. No my dolzhny nachat' s ponimaniya, kak govorit don Huan, chto v mire sushchestvuet gorazdo bol'she, chem my priznaem. Nashi obychnye ozhidaniya naschet real'nosti sozdayutsya social'nym dogovorom. Nas obuchayut kak videt' i kak ponimat' mir. Tryuk socializacii - ubedit' nas v tom, chto opisaniya, s kotorymi my soglashaemsya, opredelyayut granicy real'nogo mira. To, chto my nazyvaem real'nost'yu - eto tol'ko odin iz sposobov videniya mira, sposob, kotoryj podderzhivaetsya social'nym dogovorom. Kin: Togda mag, kak gipnotizer, sozdaet al'ternativnyj mir postroeniem razlichnyh ozhidanij i manipulirovaniem namekami, chtoby sozdat' social'nyj dogovor. Kastaneda: Imenno. YA prishel k ponimaniyu magii v terminah idei Talkotta Parsonsa o glossah. Gloss - eto sovmestnaya sistema vospriyatiya i yazyka. Naprimer, eta komnata - odin iz glossov. My nasobirali vmeste nabory izolirovannyh vospriyatij - pol, potolok, okno, svetil'niki, kovry i t.p., chtoby sozdat' obshchnost'. No my dolzhny byli byt' obucheny skladyvat' mir vmeste takim sposobom. Rebenok razvedyvaet mir s malym kolichestvom predvzyatyh mnenij, poka ego ne uchat videt' veshchi tem sposobom, kotoryj otvechaet tem opisaniyam, s kotorymi kazhdyj soglashaetsya. Mir yavlyaetsya soglasheniem. Sistema glossinga kazhetsya pohozhej na nechto vrode hozhdeniya. My dolzhny uchit'sya hodit', no raz my uchimsya, my podvergaemsya sintaksisu yazyka i rezhimu vospriyatiya, kotoryj v nem soderzhitsya. Kin: To est' magiya, kak i iskusstvo, obuchaet novoj sisteme glossinga. Kogda, naprimer, van Gog porval s hudozhestvennoj tradiciej i narisoval "Zvezdnuyu noch'", on v rezul'tate skazal: vot novyj sposob vzglyada na veshchi. Zvezdy zhivy i vrashchayutsya v svoem energeticheskom pole. Kastaneda: Otchasti. No est' razlichie. Hudozhnik obychno prosto peredelyvaet starye glossy, kotorye podhodyat dlya ego chlenstva. CHlenstvo sostoit v tom, chtoby byt' ekspertom po tem smyslovym namekam, kotorye soderzhatsya v kul'ture. Naprimer, moe pervonachal'noe chlenstvo, kak ves'ma obrazovannogo zapadnogo cheloveka, bylo v evropejskom intellektual'nom mire. Nevozmozhno vyjti iz odnogo chlenstva, ne buduchi vvedennym v drugoe. Mozhno tol'ko peredelyvat' glossy. Kin: Don Huan resocializiroval ili desocializiroval Vas? Obuchal li on Vas novoj sisteme znachenij ili tol'ko metodu sryvaniya staroj sistemy, tak chto Vy mogli by videt' mir kak voshishchennoe ditya? Kastaneda: Don Huan i ya ne soglasny s etim. YA govoryu, chto on reglossiroval menya; on govorit, chto on deglossiroval menya. Obuchaya menya magii, on daval mne novyj nabor glossov, novyj yazyk i novyj sposob videniya mira. Odnazhdy ya pochital donu Huanu nemnogo iz linvisticheskoj filosofii Lyudviga Vittgenshtejna i on rassmeyalsya i skazal: "Tvoj Vittgenshtejn slishkom tugo zatyanul arkan vokrug svoej shei, tak chto ne mozhet nikuda idti". Kin: Vittgenshtejn - odin iz nemnogih filosofov, kto mog by ponyat' dona Huana. Ego zamechanie, chto est' mnogo razlichnyh yazykovyh igr - nauka, politika, poeziya, religiya, metafizika, kazhdaya so svoim sobstvennym sintaksisom i pravilami - moglo by pozvolit' emu ponimat' magiyu kak al'ternativnuyu sistemu vospriyatiya i znacheniya. Kastaneda: No don Huan schitaet, chto to, chto on nazyvaet videniem, yavlyaetsya postizheniem bez vsyakoj interpretacii; eto chistoe, zhelayushchee poznavat', vospriyatie. Magiya yavlyaetsya sredstvom dlya etogo. CHtoby razrushit' uverennost', chto mir - eto sposob, kotoromu vas vsegda uchili, vy dolzhny nauchit'sya novomu opisaniyu mira - magii - i zatem uderzhivat' staryj i novyj vmeste. Togda vy uvidite, chto ni odno opisanie ne yavlyaetsya konechnym. V etot moment vy proskal'zyvaete mezhdu opisaniyami; vy ostanavlivaete mir i vidite. Vy ostavleny naedine s chudom; nastoyashchim chudom videniya mira bez interpretacii. Kin: Kak Vy dumaete, vozmozhno li vybrat'sya za predely interpretacii pri pomoshchi psihodelicheskih sredstv? Kastaneda: YA tak ne dumayu. I v etom moya ssora s takimi lyud'mi, kak Timoti Liri. YA dumayu, chto on improviziroval v predelah evropejskogo chlenstva i prosto peredelyval starye glossy. YA nikogda ne prinimal LSD, no ya ponyal iz tehnik dona Huana, chto psihotropiki ispol'zuyutsya, chtoby ostanavlivat' potok ordinarnyh interpretacij, rasshiryat' protivorechiya vnutri glossov i rasshatyvat' ubezhdennost'. No odni tol'ko narkotiki ne pozvolyat vam ostanovit' mir. CHtoby sdelat' eto, vam nuzhno al'ternativnoe opisanie mira. Vot pochemu don Huan dolzhen byl obuchat' menya magii. Kin: Est' obychnaya real'nost', kotoraya, kak my, zapadnye lyudi, ubezhdeny, yavlyaetsya "tem" edinstvennym mirom, i zatem, est' otdel'naya real'nost' maga. Kakovy vazhnejshie razlichiya mezhdu nimi? Kastaneda: V evropejskom chlenstve mir stroitsya bol'shej chast'yu iz togo, chto glaza soobshchayut umu. V magii vse telo ispol'zuetsya kak receptor. Kak evropejcy, my vidim mir vovne i rasskazyvaem sebe o nem. My zdes', a mir tam. Nashi glaza pitayut nash razum i u nas net pryamogo znaniya veshchej. V sootvetstvii s magiej, eto bremya na glazah neobyazatel'no. My znaem vsem telom. Kin: Zapadnyj chelovek nachinaet s predpolozheniya, chto sub容kt i ob容kt razdeleny. My izolirovany ot mira i vynuzhdeny peresekat' nekotoryj razryv, chtoby popast' v nego. Dlya dona Huana i ego magicheskoj tradicii telo uzhe nahodit'sya v mire. My ob容dineny s mirom, a ne otchuzhdeny ot nego. Kastaneda: |to verno. Magiya imeet druguyu teoriyu voploshcheniya. Problema v magii v tom, chtoby nastroit' i privesti telo v sostoyanie gotovnosti, chtoby sdelat' ego horoshim receptorom. Evropejcy obrashchayutsya so svoimi telami tak, kak esli by oni byli ob容ktami. My napolnyaem ih alkogolem, plohoj pishchej i bespokojstvom. Kogda chto-to idet ne tak, my dumaem, chto bakterii pronikli v telo izvne i poetomu prinimaem kakoe-libo lekarstvo, chtoby ego vylechit'; zabolevanie ne yavlyaetsya chast'yu nas. Don Huan ne verit v eto. Dlya nego zabolevanie - eto dizgarmoniya mezhdu chelovekom i ego mirom. Telo - eto soznanie i s nim neobhodimo obrashchat'sya bezuprechno. Kin: |to zvuchit pohozhe na ideyu Normana O.Brauna o tom, chto deti, shizofreniki i lica s dionisijskim soznaniem schitayut veshchi i drugih lyudej rasshireniyami sobstvennyh tel. Don Huan namekaet na nechto podobnoe, kogda govorit, chto chelovek znaniya obladaet voloknami sveta, kotorye soedinyayut ego solnechnoe spletenie s ostal'nym mirom. Kastaneda: Moj razgovor s kojotom - horoshaya illyustraciya razlichnyh teorij voploshcheniya. Kogda on podoshel ko mne, ya skazal: "Zdravstvuj, malen'kij kojot. Kak pozhivaesh'?" I on mne otvetil: "YA horosho, a kak ty?" Tak vot, ya ne slyshal slova obychnym sposobom. No moe telo znalo, chto kojot chto-to govoril i ya perevel eto v dialog. Kak u intellektuala, moe otnoshenie k dialogu nastol'ko glubokoe, chto moe telo avtomaticheski perevelo v slova to chuvstvo, kotoroe zhivotnoe soobshchalo mne. My vsegda vidim neizvestnoe v terminah izvestnogo. Kin: Kogda Vy v tom magicheskom sostoyanii soznaniya, v kotorom kojoty govoryat i vse yasno i ponyatno, eto vyglyadit tak, kak budto ves' mir zhivoj i chto chelovecheskie sushchestva nahodyatsya v soobshchestve, kotoroe vklyuchaet v sebya zhivotnyh i rasteniya. Esli my otbrosim nashi vysokomernye predpolozheniya, chto my yavlyaemsya edinstvennoj ponimayushchej i kommuniciruyushchej formoj zhizni, my smozhem ponyat', chto vse chto ugodno razgovarivaet s nami. Dzhon Lilli razgovarival s del'finami. Vozmozhno, my pochuvstvovali by sebya menee otchuzhdennymi, esli by mogli poverit' v to, chto my ne edinstvennaya razumnaya zhizn'. Kastaneda: My mogli by byt' sposobny razgovarivat' s lyubym zhivotnym. Dlya dona Huana i drugih magov ne bylo nichego neobychnogo v moem razgovore s kojotom. Na samom dele oni skazali, chto mne sleduet vybrat' bolee nadezhnoe zhivotnoe v kachestve druga. Kojoty-obmanshchiki i im nel'zya doveryat'. Kin: Kakie zhivotnye stanovyatsya bolee podhodyashchimi druz'yami? Kastaneda: Zmei stanovyatsya izumitel'nymi druz'yami. Kin: Odnazhdy u menya byl razgovor so zmeej. Kak-to noch'yu mne prisnilas' zmeya v mansarde doma, gde ya zhil, kogda byl rebenkom. YA vzyal palku i popytalsya ubit' ee. Utrom ya rasskazal son svoej podruge i ona napomnila mne, chto ubivat' zmej nehorosho, dazhe esli oni v mansarde vo sne. Ona nastaivala, chtoby v sleduyushchij raz, kogda zmeya poyavit'sya vo sne, mne sleduet pokormit' ee ili chto-to sdelat', chtoby pomoch' ej. Primerno cherez chas ya ehal na motorollere po maloispol'zuemoj doroge i tam ona zhdala menya - chetyrehfutovaya zmeya, vytyanuvshayasya i grevshayasya na solnce. YA pod容hal k nej i ona ne shevel'nulas'. Zatem my smotreli drug na druga kakoe-to vremya i ya reshil, chto mne sleduet sdelat' kakoj-to zhest, chtoby dat' ej znat' o tom, chto ya sozhaleyu, chto pytalsya ubit' ee sestru v svoem sne. YA priblizilsya i prikosnulsya k ee hvostu. Ona svilas' i pokazala, chto ya narushil nashu intimnost'. Tak chto ya otoshel nazad i prosto smotrel. Primerno cherez pyat' minut ona ushla v kusty. Kastaneda: Vy ne podobrali ee? Kin: Net. Kastaneda: |to byl ochen' horoshij drug. CHelovek mozhet nauchit'sya vyzyvat' zmej. No nuzhno byt' v ochen' horoshej forme, spokojnym, sobrannym - v druzhelyubnom nastroenii, bez somnenij i nevypolnennyh del. Kin: Moya zmeya nauchila menya, chto u menya vsegda byli paranoidal'nye chuvstva po otnosheniyu k prirode. YA schital zhivotnyh i zmej opasnymi. Posle toj vstrechi ya nikogda by ne ubil zmeyu i eto stalo bolee pravdopodobnym dlya menya, chto my mozhem nahodit'sya v chem-to vrode zhivogo soobshchestva. Nasha ekosistema vpolne mogla by vklyuchat' kommunikaciyu mezhdu razlichnymi formami zhizni. Kastaneda: U dona Huana ob etom est' ochen' interesnaya teoriya. Rasteniya, kak i zhivotnye, vsegda vliyayut na vas. On govorit, chto esli ne izvinyat'sya pered rasteniyami za to, chto vy sryvaete ih, mozhno zabolet' ili mozhet proizojti neschastnyj sluchaj. Kin: U amerikanskie indejcev byli pohozhie verovaniya o zhivotnyh, kotoryh oni ubivali. Esli ne poblagodarit' zhivotnoe za to, chto ono otdaet svoyu zhizn' za to, chtoby vy mogli zhit', ego duh mozhet sozdat' vam nepriyatnosti. Kastaneda: U nas est' obshchnost' so vsej zhizn'yu. CHto-to menyaetsya kazhdyj raz, kogda my bezdumno vredim rastitel'noj ili zhivotnoj zhizni. My zabiraem zhizn' dlya togo, chtoby zhit', no my dolzhny byt' gotovy otdat' nashi zhizni bez negodovaniya, kogda pridet nashe vremya. My takie vazhnye i prinimaem sebya tak vser'ez, chto zabyvaem o tom, chto mir - eto velichajshaya tajna, kotoraya budet uchit' nas, esli my budem slushat'. Kin: Vozmozhno, psihotropnye preparaty vremenno otmetayut izolirovannoe ego i dopuskayut misticheskoe sliyanie s prirodoj. Mnogie kul'tury, kotorye sohranili chuvstvo obshchnosti mezhdu chelovekom i prirodoj, takzhe sozdali ceremonial'noe ispol'zovanie psihodelicheskih sredstv. Vy ispol'zovali pejot, kogda razgovarivali s kojotom? Kastaneda: Net. Sovsem net. Kin: |to perezhivanie bylo bolee intensivnym, chem podobnye perezhivaniya, kotorye u Vas byli, kogda don Huan daval Vam psihotropnye rasteniya? Kastaneda: Gorazdo bolee intensivnym. Kazhdyj raz kogda ya prinimal psihotropnye rasteniya, ya znal, chto ya prinyal chto-to i mog vsegda usomnit'sya v podlinnosti moego opyta. No kogda kojot razgovarival so mnoj, mne nechem bylo zashchishchat'sya. YA nikak ne mog etogo ob座asnit'. YA dejstvitel'no ostanovil mir i na korotkoe vremya polnost'yu vyshel iz moej evropejskoj sistemy glossinga. Kin: Kak Vy dumaete, don Huan zhivet v takom sostoyanii soznaniya bol'shuyu chast' vremeni? Kastaneda: Da. On zhilet v magicheskom vremeni i inogda vhodit v obychnoe vremya. YA zhivu v obychnom vremeni i inogda pogruzhayus' v magicheskoe vremya. Kin: Lyuboj, kto puteshestvuet tak daleko ot izbityh putej dogovorennosti, dolzhen byt' ochen' odinokim. Kastaneda: YA dumayu, chto da. Don Huan zhivet v osobennom mire i on ostavil obychnyh lyudej daleko pozadi. Odnazhdy, kogda ya byl s donom Huanom i ego drugom donom Henaro, ya uvidel to odinochestvo, kotoroe oni razdelyali i ih pechal' ob ostavlennyh pozadi vneshnih atributah i tochkah otscheta obychnogo obshchestva. YA dumayu, chto don Huan prevrashchaet svoe odinochestvo v iskusstvo. On uderzhivaet i upravlyaet svoej siloj, zhazhdoj znaniya i odinochestvom i prevrashchaet ih v iskusstvo. Ego iskusstvo - eto metaforicheskoe vyrazhenie obraza ego zhizni. Vot pochemu ego tehniki obladayut takim dramaticheskim aromatom i edinstvom. On obdumanno konstruiruet svoyu zhizn' i svoyu maneru obucheniya. Kin: Naprimer, kogda don Huan vzyal Vas v gory ohotit'sya na zhivotnyh, on soznatel'no vystraival allegoriyu? Kastaneda: Da. Ego ne interesovala ohota radi sporta ili radi dobychi myasa. Za 10 let, kotorye ya znayu ego, don Huan ubil tol'ko chetyreh zhivotnyh radi moego znaniya i eto bylo tol'ko togda, kogda on videl, chto ih smert' byla darom dlya nego tak zhe kak ego smert' kogda-nibud' mogla by stat' darom chemu-libo. Odnazhdy my pojmali krolika v lovushku, kotoruyu ustanovili i don Huan polagal, chto mne sledovalo ubit' krolika, potomu chto ego vremya vyshlo. YA byl v otchayanii, potomu chto u menya bylo takoe oshchushchenie, tochno ya sam byl krolikom. YA popytalsya osvobodit' ego, no ne mog otkryt' lovushku. Togda ya pnul lovushku nogoj i nechayanno slomal kroliku sheyu. Don Huan vse vremya pytalsya nauchit' menya tomu, chto ya dolzhen prinimat' na sebya otvetstvennost' za sushchestvovanie v etom udivitel'nom mire. On naklonilsya i prosheptal mne na uho: "YA govoril tebe, chto u etogo krolika bol'she net vremeni prygat' po etoj prekrasnoj pustyne". On soznatel'no vystroil etu metaforu chtoby uchit' menya o putyah voina. Voin - eto chelovek, kotoryj ohotitsya i nakaplivaet lichnuyu silu. CHtoby delat' eto, on dolzhen razvivat' terpenie i volyu i obdumanno dvigat'sya v mire. Don Huan ispol'zoval dramaticheskuyu situaciyu nastoyashchej ohoty, chtoby uchit' menya, potomu chto sam on obrashchalsya k moemu telu. Kin: V vashej samoj nedavnej knige "Puteshestvie v Ikstlen", Vy razrushaete to vpechatlenie, poluchennoe ot Vashih pervyh knig, chto ispol'zovanie psihotropnyh rastenij bylo glavnym metodom dona Huana pri obuchenii Vas magii. Kak Vy ponimaete mesto psihotropikov v ego uchenii? Kastaneda: Don Huan ispol'zoval psihotropnye rasteniya tol'ko v nachal'nyj period moego uchenichestva, potomu chto ya byl takim glupym, umudrennym opytom i petushistym. YA derzhalsya za svoe opisanie mira tak, kak esli by ono bylo edinstvennoj pravdoj. Psihotropiki sozdavali razryv v moej sisteme glossov. Oni razrushali moyu dogmaticheskuyu uverennost'. No ya zaplatil uzhasnuyu cenu. Kogda klej, kotoryj uderzhival vmeste moj mir, byl rastvoren, moe telo bylo oslableno i ponadobilis' mesyacy dlya vosstanovleniya sil. YA byl ozabochen i funkcioniroval na ochen' nizkom urovne. Kin: Don Huan regulyarno ispol'zuet psihotropnye preparaty chtoby ostanavlivat' mir? Kastaneda: Net. On mozhet ostanovit' ego po svoej vole. On govoril mne, chto dlya menya pytat'sya videt' bez pomoshchi psihotropnyh rastenij bylo by bespolezno. No esli by ya vel sebya kak voin i prinimal by na sebya otvetstvennost', ya ne nuzhdalsya by v nih, oni by tol'ko oslablyali moe telo. Kin: |to dolzhno okazat'sya prosto shokom dlya mnogih Vashih poklonnikov. Vy yavlyaetes' chem-to vrode glavnogo svyatogo dlya psihodelicheskoj revolyucii. Kastaneda: U menya est' posledovateli, a u nih est' kakie-to strannye idei naschet menya. Odnazhdy ya shel na lekciyu, kotoruyu ya daval v Kalifornii, Long Bich i odin paren', kotoryj menya znal, ukazal na menya svoej podruzhke i skazal: "|j, smotri, eto Kastaneda". Ona ne poverila emu, potomu chto u nee byla ideya o tom, chto ya dolzhen byt' ochen' misticheskim. Odin drug sobral nekotorye iz istorij, kotorye hodyat obo mne. I vo vseh soobshchaetsya, chto u menya misticheskie stupni. Kin: Misticheskie stupni? Kastaneda: Da, chto ya hozhu bosikom kak Isus i u menya net mozolej. Schitaetsya, chto menya pobivali kamnyami mnogo raz. YA takzhe sovershil suicid i umer v neskol'kih razlichnyh mestah. Moi odnoklassniki po kolledzhu pochti zakapriznichali, kogda ya nachal govorit' o fenomenologii i chlenstve i izuchat' vospriyatie i socializaciyu. Oni hoteli, chtoby im veleli rasslabit'sya, otklyuchit'sya i chtoby im vysmorkali mozgi. No dlya menya vazhno ponimanie. Kin: Sluhi poyavlyayutsya v informacionnom vakuume. My znaem koe-chto o done Huane, no slishkom malo o Kastanede. Kastaneda: |to namerenno vystroennaya chast' zhizni voina. CHtoby proskal'zyvat' v drugie miry i obratno, nuzhno ostavat'sya nepredskazuemym. CHem bol'she vas znayut i uznayut, tem bol'she urezaetsya vasha svoboda. Kogda u lyudej est' opredelennye idei o tom, kto vy i kak vy budete dejstvovat', vy ne smozhete i poshevel'nut'sya. Odna iz samyh rannih veshchej, kotorym don Huan nauchil menya, eto chto ya dolzhen steret' moyu lichnuyu istoriyu. Esli malo-pomalu vy sozdaete tuman vokrug sebya, to vas ne budut prinimat' kak samo soboj razumeyushcheesya i u vas budet bol'she mesta dlya izmeneniya. Po etoj prichine ya izbegayu zapisyvat'sya na plenku, kogda chitayu lekcii i fotografirovat'sya. Kin: Mozhet byt', my mozhem byt' lichnymi bez togo, chtoby byt' istoricheskimi. Vy teper' minimiziruete vazhnost' psihodelicheskogo opyta, svyazannogo s vashim uchenichestvom. No pohozhe, chto Vy ne obhodite storonoj te tryuki, kotorye Vy opisyvaete kak imushchestvo maga. Kakie elementy tehnik dona Huana vazhny dlya Vas? Kastaneda: Dlya menya idei byt' voinom i chelovekom znaniya, s nadezhdoj pri izvestnyh obstoyatel'stvah byt' sposobnym ostanavlivat' mir i videt', yavlyayutsya samymi podhodyashchimi. Oni dali mne mir i uverennost' v moej sposobnosti upravlyat' svoej zhizn'yu. V to vremya, kogda ya vstretil dona Huana, u menya bylo ochen' malo lichnoj sily. Moya zhizn' byla ochen' neustojchivoj. YA prodelal dlinnyj put' ot mesta, gde ya rodilsya, v Brazilii. Vneshne ya byl ochen' agressivnym i petushistym, no vnutri ya byl nereshitel'nym i neuverennym v sebe. YA vsegda sozdaval sebe opravdaniya. Don Huan odnazhdy obvinil menya v tom, chto ya professional'nyj rebenok, potomu chto ya byl nastol'ko polon zhalosti k sebe. YA pochuvstvoval sebya kak list na vetru. Kak mnogie intellektualy, ya byl pripert k stene. Mne nekuda bylo idti. YA ne videl nikakogo puti v zhizni, kotoryj by menya real'no uvlekal. YA schital, chto vse, chto ya mog sdelat', eto horosho podstroit'sya k skuchnoj zhizni ili zhe najti bolee slozhnye formy razvlecheniya, takie kak ispol'zovanie psihodelikov i marihuany i seksual'nye priklyucheniya. Vse eto preuvelichivalos' moej privychkoj k introspekcii. YA vse vremya glyadel vnutr' i razgovarival sam s soboj. Vnutrennij dialog redko ostanavlivalsya. Don Huan razvernul moi glaza naruzhu i nauchil menya nakaplivat' lichnuyu silu. YA ne dumayu, chto est' kakoj-nibud' drugoj obraz zhizni, esli kto-to hochet zhit' radostno. Kin: Pohozhe, chto on pojmal Vas starym filosofskim tryukom o prisutstvii smerti pered glazami. YA byl porazhen tem, kakim klassicheskim byl podhod dona Huana. YA uslyshal eho idei Platona o tom, chto filosof dolzhen izuchat' smert' pered tem, kak obresti lyuboj dostup k real'nomu miru i opredeleniya Martina Hajdeggera cheloveka kak sushchestva, napravlennogo k smerti. Kastaneda: Da, no podhod dona Huana obladaet neznakomym izgibom, potomu chto on idet iz toj tradicii v magii, chto smert' - eto fizicheskoe prisutstvie, kotoroe mozhno pochuvstvovat' i uvidet'. Odin iz glossov magii takov: smert' stoit sleva ot vas. Smert' yavlyaetsya besstrastnym sud'ej, kotoryj budet govorit' vam pravdu i davat' tochnyj sovet. Krome togo, smert' ne speshit. Ona voz'met vas zavtra ili na sleduyushchej nedele ili cherez 50 let. Dlya nee eto vse ravno. V tot moment, kogda vy vspominaete, chto dolzhny kogda-to umeret', vy privodites' k pravil'nomu razmeru. YA dumayu, chto ne sdelal etu ideyu dostatochno yarkoj. Gloss "smert' sleva ot vas" - ne intellektual'noe ponyatie v magii; eto vospriyatie. Kogda vashe telo pravil'no nastroeno na mir i vy skashivaete glaza vlevo vy mozhete zametit' neobychnoe sobytie, tenepodobnoe prisutstvie smerti. Kin: V ekzistencial'noj tradicii, obsuzhdenie otvetstvennosti obychno sleduet za obsuzhdeniem smerti. Kastaneda: Togda don Huan - horoshij ekzistencialist. Kogda net sposoba uznat', est' li u menya eshche odna minuta zhizni, ya dolzhen zhit', kak esli by eto byl moj poslednij moment. Kazhdoe dejstvie - eto poslednyaya bitva voina. Tak chto vse dolzhno delat'sya bezuprechno. Nichto ne mozhet byt' ostavleno ozhidat' resheniya. |ta ideya yavlyaetsya dlya menya ochen' osvobozhdayushchej. YA razgovarivayu zdes' s Vami i mogu nikogda ne vernut'sya v Los-Andzheles. No eto ne imelo by znacheniya, potomu chto ya pozabotilsya obo vsem pered tem, kak prijti. Kin: |tot mir smerti i reshitel'nosti - dolgij put' ot psihodelicheskih utopij, v kotoryh videnie beskonechnogo vremeni razrushaet eto tragicheskoe kachestvo vybora. Kastaneda: Kogda smert' stoit sleva ot vas, vy dolzhny sozdavat' vash mir posledovatel'nost'yu reshenij. Ne byvaet bol'shih ili malyh reshenij, tol'ko resheniya, kotorye dolzhny byt' prinyaty sejchas. I net vremeni dlya somnenij ili ugryznenij sovesti. Esli by ya tratil svoe vremya, sozhaleya o tom, chto sdelal vchera, ya ushel by ot teh reshenij, kotorye mne nuzhno prinyat' segodnya. Kin: Kak don Huan uchil Vas byt' reshitel'nym? Kastaneda: On govoril s moim telom pri pomoshchi svoih dejstvij.Moj staryj sbosob byl ostavlyat' vse na potom i nikogda nichego ne reshat'.Dlya menya resheniya byli bezobraznymi. Kazalos' nechestnym, kogda chuvstvitel'nyj chelovek dolzhen reshat'. Odnazhdy don Huan sprosil menya: "Ty dumaesh', my ravny?" YA byl studentom universiteta i intellektualom, a on byl starym indejcem, no ya snizoshel i skazal: "Konechno, my ravny". On skazal: "YA tak ne dumayu. YA ohotnik i voin, a ty parazit. YA gotov podytozhit' moyu zhizn' v lyuboj moment. Tvoj hilyj mir nereshitel'nosti i pechali sovsem ne raven moemu". Nu, ya byl ochen' oskorblen i ushel by, no my byli posredi pustyni. Tak chto ya uselsya i okazalsya pojmannym v lovushku svoego ego. YA sobiralsya zhdat', poka on ne reshit pojti domoj. CHerez mnogo chasov ya uvidel, chto don Huan ostalsya by tam navsegda, esli by eto bylo nuzhno. Pochemu by i net? Dlya cheloveka bez otlozhennyh del eto est' ego sila. YA nakonec ponyal, chto etot chelovek sovsem ne byl pohozh na moego otca, kotoryj mog prinyat' dvadcat' reshenij na Novyj god i otmenit' ih vse. Resheniya dona Huana byli neotmenyaemymi, nastol'ko, naskol'ko on byl v etom zainteresovan. Oni mogli otmenyat'sya tol'ko drugimi resheniyami. Tak chto ya podoshel i prikosnulsya k nemu i on podnyalsya i my poshli domoj. Sila vliyaniya etogo dejstviya byla ogromnoj. |to ubedilo menya, chto put' voina - eto energichnyj i moshchnyj sposob zhit'. Kin: I soderzhanie resheniya ne stol' vazhno, kak samo dejstvie, sovershaemoe iz prinyatiya resheniya. Kastaneda: |to to, chto don Huan nazyvaet sdelat' zhest. ZHest - eto namerennyj akt, kotoryj predprinimaetsya radi toj sily, kotoraya prihodit iz prinyatiya resheniya. Naprimer, esli voin nahodil zmeyu, kotoraya byla nepodvizhna i holodna, on mog srazhat'sya za to, chtoby izobresti sposob perenesti ee v teploe mesto bez togo, chtoby okazat'sya ukushennym. Voin mog by sdelat' zhest prosto chert znaet zachem. No on vypolnyal by eto v sovershenstve. Kin: Pohozhe, chto est' mnogo parallelej mezhdu ekzistencial'noj filosofiej i ucheniem dona Huana. To, chto vy skazali o reshenii i o zheste podrazumevaet, chto don Huan, kak Nicshe ili Sartr, verit, chto volya, a ne razum yavlyaetsya samoj fundamental'noj sposobnost'yu cheloveka. Kastaneda: YA dumayu, chto eto verno. Pozvol'te mne govorit' za samogo sebya. CHto ya hochu sdelat' i vozmozhno, smogu vypolnit', eto zabrat' kontrol' u svoego rassudka. Moj um nahodilsya pod kontrolem vsyu moyu zhizn' i eto ubilo by menya skoree, chem poterya kontrolya. V kakoj-to moment moego uchenichestva ya stal gluboko depressivnym. YA byl oshelomlen uzhasom i unyniem i myslyami o suicide. Togda don Huan predupredil menya, chto eto byl odin iz tryukov rassudka, chtoby uderzhat' kontrol'. On skazal, chto moj rassudok zastavlyal moe telo chuvstvovat', chto net nikakogo smysla v zhizni. Poskol'ku moj um vstupil v etu poslednyuyu bitvu i proigral, rassudok stal zanimat' nadlezhashchee emu mesto, kak instrument tela. Kin: "U serdca est' svoi dovody, neizvestnye razumu", i tak zhe i u vsego tela. Kastaneda: V etom vse i delo. Telo obladaet svoej sobstvennoj volej. Ili, skoree, volya eto golos tela. Vot pochemu don Huan posledovatel'no oblekal svoi tehniki v dramaticheskuyu formu. Moj intellekt mog legko otbrosit' ego mir magii kak nonsens. No moe telo bylo privlecheno k ego miru i obrazu zhizni. I poskol'ku telo vzyalo verh, novyj i bolee zdorovyj obraz zhizni byl dostignut. Kin: Tehniki dona Huana po rabote so snami zainteresovali menya, potomu chto oni vnushayut vozmozhnost' volevogo kontrolya obrazov, vidimyh vo sne. Pohozhe, chto on predlagaet dostich' postoyannogo, stabil'nogo nablyudeniya v predelah vnutrennego prostranstva. Rasskazhite mne o trenirovke snovideniya dona Huana. Kastaneda: Osnovnoj tryuk v snovidenii - uderzhivat' obrazy, vidimye vo sne dostatochno dolgo chtoby tshchatel'no ih rassmotret'. CHtoby obresti etot vid kontrolya, vam nuzhno zaranee vybrat' kakuyu-nibud' odnu veshch' i nauchit'sya nahodit' ee v vashih snah. Don Huan predlagal, chtoby ya ispol'zoval svoi ruki kak tochku otscheta i perehodil tuda i syuda mezhdu nimi i obrazami. CHerez neskol'ko mesyacev ya nauchilsya nahodit' svoi ruki i ostanavlivat' snovidenie. YA byl nastol'ko ocharovan etoj tehnikoj, chto s trudom mog dozhdat'sya vremeni chtoby pojti spat'. Kin: Pohozha li ostanovka obrazov vo sne na ostanovku mira? Kastaneda: Oni pohozhi. No est' razlichiya. Kak tol'ko vy stanovites' sposobny nahodit' vashi ruki po vashej vole, vy obnaruzhivaete, chto eto tol'ko tehnika. To chto vy poluchaete - eto kontrol'. CHelovek znaniya dolzhen nakaplivat' lichnuyu silu. No etogo nedostatochno, chtoby ostanavlivat' mir. Neobhodimo koe-chto ostavit'. Vy dolzhny prervat' boltovnyu, kotoraya idet v vashem ume i sdat'sya vneshnemu miru. Kin: Iz mnozhestva tehnik, kotorym don Huan uchil Vas, chtoby ostanavlivat' mir, kakie iz nih Vy prodolzhaete praktikovat'? Kastaneda: Sejchas moya osnovnaya disciplina - eto razryvat' moi shablony. YA vsegda byl ochen' zashablonennoj lichnost'yu. YA el i spal po raspisaniyu. V 1965 ya nachal menyat' svoi privychki. YA pisal v tihie nochnye chasy i spal i el togda, kogda chuvstvoval v etom nuzhdu. K nastoyashchemu vremeni ya izbavilsya ot takogo mnozhestva moih privychnyh sposobov dejstviya, chto skoro ya mogu stat' nepredskazuemym i neozhidannym dazhe dlya samogo sebya. Kin: Vasha disciplina napominaet mne dzenskuyu istoriyu o dvuh uchenikah, hvastavshihsya chudesnymi silami. Odin uchenik zayavlyal, chto osnovatel' sekty, k kotoroj on prinadlezhal, mog stoyat' na odnoj storone reki i pisat' imya Buddy na liste bumagi, kotoryj derzhal ego pomoshchnik na protivopolozhnom beregu. Vtoroj uchenik otvetil, chto takoe chudo ne vpechatlyaet. "Moe chudo", skazal on, "v tom, chto kogda ya chuvstvuyu golod, to ya em, a kogda chuvstvuyu zhazhdu, to p'yu". Kastaneda: |to i byl tot element vstupleniya v mir, kotoryj uderzhal menya na puti, kotoryj don Huan pokazal mne. Net nuzhdy prevoshodit', transcendirovat' mir. Vse, chto nam nuzhno znat', nahodit'sya pryamo pered nami, esli my udelim vnimanie. Esli vy vhodite v sostoyanie neobychnoj real'nosti, kak pri ispol'zovanii psihotropnyh rastenij, to eto tol'ko dlya togo, chtoby otstupit' nazad i uvidet' to, chto vam nuzhno - chudesnuyu sushchnost' obychnoj real'nosti. Dlya menya obraz zhizni - put' s serdcem - ne introspekciya ili misticheskaya transcendenciya, a prisutstvie v mire. |tot mir - ohotnich'ya zemlya voina. Kin: Mir, narisovannyj Vami i donom Huanom polon volshebnyh kojotov, zakoldovannyh voron i prekrasnyh magov. Legko ponyat', kak on mog pokorit' Vas. No kak naschet mira sovremennogo gorozhanina? Gde magiya tam? Esli by my vse mogli zhit' v gorah, to mogli by sohranit' chudo v zhivyh. No kak eto vozmozhno, kogda my napolovinu sostoim iz shuma shosse? Kastaneda: YA odnazhdy zadal donu Huanu tot zhe samyj vopros. My sideli v kafe v YUme i ya nastaival, chto mog by ostanovit' mir i videt', esli by otpravilsya zhit' v glushi s nim. On posmotrel v okno na proezzhayushchie mashiny i skazal: "Vot tam, eto i est' tvoj mir". Sejchas ya zhivu v Los-Andzhelese i nahozhu, chto mogu ispol'zovat' etot mir, chtoby soglasovat' svoi nuzhdy. |to vyzov - zhit' bez ustanovlennyh shablonov v shablonnom mire. No eto mozhet byt' sdelano. Kin: Takoj uroven' shuma i postoyannoe davlenie lyudskih mass vyglyadit razrushayushchim tishinu i odinochestvo, kotorye byli by neobhodimy dlya togo, chtoby ostanovit' mir. Kastaneda: Vovse net. Na samom dele, etot shum mozhno ispol'zovat'. Vy mozhete ispol'zovat' zhuzhzhanie shosse, chtoby uchit'sya slushat' vneshnij mir. Kogda my ostanavlivaem mir, to ostanavlivaemyj mir - eto tot, kotoryj my obychno podderzhivaem svoim postoyannym vnutrennim dialogom. Raz vy mozhete ostanovit' vnutrennee bormotanie, vy perestaete podderzhivat' vash staryj mir. Opisaniya rushatsya. Vot togda nachinaetsya izmenenie lichnosti. Kogda vy koncentriruetes' na zvukah, to obnaruzhivaete, chto mozgu trudno kategorizirovat' vse zvuki i vskore vy ostavlyaete eti popytki. |to ne pohozhe na vizual'noe vospriyatie, kotoroe uderzhivaet nas formiruyushchimi kategorii i myshlenie. |to tak uspokoitel'no, kogda vy mozhete otklyuchit' razgovory, kategorizirovanie i suzhdenie. Kin: Vnutrennij mir menyaetsya, no kak naschet vneshnego? My mozhem revolyucionizirovat' individual'noe soznanie, no vse eshche ne kasaemsya teh social'nyh struktur, kotorye sozdayut nashe otchuzhdenie. Est' li kakoe-libo mesto dlya obshchestvennoj ili politicheskoj reformy v Vashem myshlenii? Kastaneda: YA rodom iz Latinskoj Ameriki, gde intellektualy vsegda govorili o social'noj i politicheskoj revolyucii i gde bylo brosheno mnozhestvo bomb. No revolyuciya ne mnogo peremenila. Ne ochen' mnogo nuzhno, chtoby razbombit' zdanie, no chtoby brosit' kurit' ili perestat' byt' ozabochennym ili ostanovit' vnutrennyuyu boltovnyu, vam nuzhno peredelyvat' sebya. Vot gde nachinayutsya nastoyashchie reformy. Don Huan i ya nedavno byli v Taksone, kogda tam provodilas' Nedelya Zemli. Kakoj-to chelovek provodil lekciyu po ekologii i bedstviyah vojny vo V'etname. On vse vremya kuril. Don Huan skazal: "YA ne mogu sebe predstavit', chto on zabotitsya o telah drugih lyudej, kogda emu ne nravitsya svoe sobstvennoe". Nasha pervaya zabota dolzhna byt' o samih sebe. Mne mogut nravit'sya moi znakomye tol'ko kogda ya na pike energii i ne v depressii. CHtoby byt' v etom sostoyanii, ya dolzhen soderzhat' moe telo v poryadke. Lyubaya revolyuciya dolzhna nachinat'sya zdes', v etom tele. YA mogu izmenit' moyu kul'turu, no tol'ko iznutri takogo tela, kotoroe bezuprechno nastroeno na etot sverh容stestvennyj mir. Dlya menya nastoyashchaya obrazovannost' - eto iskusstvo byt' voinom, kotoroe, kak govorit don Huan, yavlyaetsya edinstvennym sposobom sbalansirovat' uzhas byt' chelovekom s voshishcheniem byt' chelovekom. Sam Keen: Castaneda Interview. 1976 --------------------------------------------------------------- Source: "Seeing Castaneda" (1976) reprinted from "Psychology Today", 1972. --------------------------------------------------------------- SAM KEEN: As I followed don Juan through your three books, I suspected, at times, that he was the creation of Carlos Castaneda. He is almost to good to be true--a wise old Indian whose knowledge of human nature is superior to almost everybody's. CARLOS CASTANEDA: The idea that I concocted a person like don Juan is inconceivable. He is hardly the kind of figure my European intellectual tradition would have led me to invent. The truth is much stranger. I wasn't even prepared to make the changes in my life that my association with don Juan involved. KEEN: How and where did you meet don Juan and become his apprentice? CASTANEDA: I was finishing my undergraduate study at UCLA and was planning to go to graduate school in anthropology. I was interested in becoming a professor and thought I might begin in the proper way by publishing a short paper on medicinal plants. I couldn't have cared less about finding a weirdo like don Juan. I was in a bus depot in Arizona with a high-school friend of mine. He pointed out an old Indian man to me and said he knew about peyote and medicinal plants. I put on my best airs and introduced myself to don Juan and said: "I understand you know a great deal about peyote. I am one of the experts on peyote (I had read Weston La Barre's __The Peyote Cult__) and it might be worth your while to have lunch and talk with me." Well, he just looked at me and my bravado melted. I was absolutely tongue-tied and numb. I was usually very aggressive and verbal so it was a momentous affair to be silenced by a look. After that I began to visit him and about a year later he told me he had decided to pass on to me the knowledge of sorcery he had learned from his teacher. KEEN: Then don Juan is not an isolated phenomenon. Is there a community of sorcerers that shares a secret knowledge? CASTANEDA: Certainly. I know three sorcerers and seven apprentices and there are many more. If you read the history of the Spanish conquest of Mexico, you will find that the Catholic inquisitors tried to stamp out sorcery because they considered it the work of the devil. It has been around for many hundreds of years. Most of the techniques don Juan taught me are very old. KEEN: Some of the techniques that sorcerers use are in wide use in other occult groups. Persons often use dreams to find lost articles, and they go on out-of-the-body journeys in their sleep. But when you told how don Juan and his friend don Genero made your car disappear in broad daylight I could only scratch my head. I know that a hypnotist can create an illusion of the presence or absence of an object. Do you think you were hypnotized? CASTANEDA: Perhaps, something like that. But we have to begin by realizing, as don Juan says, that there is much more to the world than we usually acknowledge. Our normal expectations about reality are created by a social consensus. We are taught how to see and understand the world. The trick of socialization is to convince us that the descriptions we agree upon define the limits of the real world. What we call reality is only one way of seeing the world, a way that is supported by a social consensus. KEEN: Then a sorcerer, like a hypnotist, creates an alternative world by building up different expectations and manipulating cues to produce a social consensus. CASTANEDA: Exactly. I have come to understand sorcery in terms of Talcott Parsons' idea of glosses. A gloss is a total system of perception and language. For instance, this room is a gloss. We have lumped together a series of isolated perceptions--floor, ceiling, window, lights, rugs, etc.--to make a totality. But we had to be taught to put the world together in this way. A child reconnoiters the world with few preconceptions until he is taught to see things in a way that corresponds to the descriptions everybody agrees on. The world is an agreement. The system of glossing seems to be somewhat like walking. We have to learn to walk, but once we learn we are subject to the syntax of language and the mode of perception it contains. KEEN: So sorcery, like art, teaches a new system of glossing. When, for instance, van Gogh broke with the artistic tradition and painted "The Starry Night" he was in effect saying: here is a new way of looking at things. Stars are alive and they whirl around in their energy field. CASTANEDA: Partly. But there is a difference. An artist usually just rearranges the old glosses that are proper to his membership. Membership consists of being an expert in the innuendoes of meaning that are contained within a culture. For instance, my primary membership like most educated Western men was in the European intellectual world. You can't break out of one membership without being introduced into another. You can only rearrange the glosses. KEEN: Was don Juan resocializing you or desocializing you? Was he teaching you a new system of meanings or only a method of stripping off the old system so that you might see the world as a wondering child? CASTANEDA: Don Juan and I disagree about this. I say he was reglossing me and he says he was deglossing me. By t